Last Sigh: Ok. So this is the first venue of this tour? How long is this tour again, a couple weeks?

Martin: Eight shows in eight days.

Last Sigh: Oh only eight shows?

Martin: Yeah...

Last Sigh: What about the label? Are you coming, going...staying in America?

Martin: I'm staying in America, and probably moving my family back, just a question of when. Probably moving my studio back, just a question of when. And, because the label is, it's become, almost a living breathing, thing if you like, you know. There's Not Breathing out on the West Coast doing shows. Mark Spybey moves to Amsterdam, and then to England and he's doing stuff and this is happening. Meg Lee Chin's happening. And I'm talking to people all over the world about forming alliances and relationships and moving forwards and trying to triumph over all the crap, like, you know, phone bills, rent, studio, the logistical shit, of having anything to do with any form of art in any medium. And, when I get to that point, where I feel like I've triumphed, then I'll probably just give up. You know. But I don't think I am anywhere close to that for myself or for anybody else. So, I feel as though the label is a 25 hour a day job. And if I am going to see my boys or my wife, they need to be with me. And if I am going to get into my studio and make any music, for me to go through the label, then I need my studio with me too. So I'm dealing with that at the moment. And eh, enjoying getting to grips with the nuts and bolts of the label again, it's been three years I was over in England. I was commuting. I was on the phone for four hours a day just to Chicago. But it's different when you're 'in it'. So that's what's going on with me. And I'm, energized by this, the Damage Manual stuff. It's been really cool.

Last Sigh: So you're not going to give up on the label any time too soon. Are you going to keep producing Damage Manual in the future do you think or?

Martin: I don't know. That's an interesting question. I don't know. I think that producing the EP helped and possibly hindered my drumming endeavor, but in a way I'm not sure that I can. I've been drumming since I was nine. I enjoy doing all of the things that I'm doing. But at least I'm not willing to give up on the label. See it's just, that just doesn't seem like...

Last Sigh: an option?

Martin: NO!

Last Sigh: Good, because we love Invisible.

Martin: Well it's not the logo or any of that, it's all of this output from all of these people that I'm responsible for. So no, I'm not going down that road.

Last Sigh: Good ! That's good to know. What happened with... do you want to touch base with what happened to Dave?

Martin: Sure sure.. I think Dave was with the label for six years. And to say that he was my right hand guy would be an understatement. We were both living and breathing the label for a five or six year really intense period. And I think we pulled some things that I'm super really proud of, and I'm sure Dave is super proud of. And, we stand there watching Test Dept performing in front of a sold out crowd in Chicago, for the first time in eleven years.

Last Sigh: Was that the same tour a few years ago with Sheep On Drugs?

Martin: Yeah... and I think Dave just reached a point where there was such an overwhelming amount of dealing with.... crap. In a way I'm really fortunate, I'm playing drums this week. In two weeks time, I might be mixing something. And the week after that, I might be in the office dealing with whatever's going on in the office. Dave was in the office every day. And, I think he felt it was time for a change for him. And I agree with him. I'd be some kind of an asshole if I wanted to put someone I was close to, through a bad experience, for an extended period of time. We all go through bad experiences for a little bit of time here and then. Dave and I are friends and his contributions to the label is massive.

Last Sigh: So are you excited to move back to the states or?

Martin: Yes. I'm not excited for the turmoil. I'm excited to get back to the states. I moved here for a reason twenty years ago. You know I was kind of tired with England. And I think England is tired. Would you say that, is that fair Chris? Do you have the same opinion of England that I do?

[Chris Connelly was sitting next to Martin on their tour bus as we chatted.]

Chris Connelly: [Clears his throat]... I haven't spent enough time there to have a, what I'd consider a valid opinion...

Martin: Oh England being separate to Scotland?

Chris Connelly: Right. But no, I've not been in Britain for any great length of time for twelve years. If I move back and all my friends tell me this you know, back for any period of time b'cuz I go to Edinburgh, I really love it. But I'm on holiday you know.  If you move back you'd be bored and you’d be pissed off so don’t move back. You know, so I agree yeah. There are a lot of things about Britain that ah.. well, there’s a lot of things about America that I’m used to, and there’s a lot of things about Britain I’m un-used to. There’s a huge difference in the ways things are done or the ways things aren’t done, as the case may be. I mean it must be really hard for Katrina [Martin’s wife], to go to England of all places, and she’s a trooper and everything, but I can imagine when she first got there just like... for instance trying to get a glass of water or something…

Martin: Yeah... a glass of water in a restaurant… [laugh]

Chris: Yeah forget it!

Martin: Sixty Pence Please!!!!!

You can go to a restaurant and they don’t just put a bottle of catsup on the table, they’ll give you just a few of the packets. And you have to ask for more, because somebody said: "Listen there, look there, at the catsup figures, '87, '88, '89, I’ve seen a trend. Look I’ve got some ideas; I’m here with Tony. He’s got an idea for these packets. I think we can make an extra four dollars a week." So there’s restaurants over there now where they’ve done away with the idea of waitstaff. And these are kind of mid-level restaurants, they're  not just like shit restaurants. There are actually people around. And you go and sit at the table that you want like table 14, then you go to the bar and you say: "I’m at table 14, then "Blip", that’s great.. I want the steak, "Blip", well done, "Blip" with a "Blip Blip Blip" right? And no where in this whole scenario… and then you go and sit down, and someone, someone in the back says you know... "This order on the computer screen…needs to go to this table...", and they just bring it out to you. O.K. Bye!

Well you’re sitting there with two young kids. A bread roll …… between the two young boys, would not only make my experience delightful, but everybody else around us who’s listening to kids screaming b'cuz they’re hungry. There’s a person employed, to bring the food from the kitchen to your table then: Go O.K., and then BAIL! But, the whole concept of service, and, and the experience, that’s it’s over something like half a bread roll or couple’a crackers would shut ‘em up, until the food arrives. It's just eh.. it’s just upside down to me…

Last Sigh: They’re starting to do that here too [in the USA].

John: Where? I haven’t gone to those places…

Last Sigh: Well there’s one down on Westnedge, some Italian place.. you go up there and yeah, they bring [the food] to a number on a table, but they check on you for breadsticks and…it’s probably not as bad here as it is there [England]…

Martin: I think the English expression is: "Spoiling the ship for a ha’penny worth of time." They build this whole fucking ship, and just b'cuz someone is saving a couple of pennies, there’s a little hole in the bottom of the boat and the whole bloody thing sinks.

Last Sigh: Sounds like the USS Cole last week.

[Chris Connelly kindly excuses himself and leaves the room… ]

Last Sigh: So are you originally from England? And you were here twenty years ago or?

Martin: Well I moved over here in ’81…

Last Sigh: So is there anything you’d like to see happen in the music scene that you're involved in, that hasn't happened yet? Anything you can think of?

Martin: Yes. And it’s not going to happen…I just saw an ad today in the Grand Rapids.. something, review, preview, something, the ad said it was for "Caviar", a band that’s got a single out called "Tangerine Speedo", then the ad said, "Just as you heard it on WGRD." Or something. And um.. the bottom of the ad it said: "If you like, fans of "two other bands", you’ll like this record." Are people so lazy and lame, that it’s like, .. you see it on the web all the time, you know, people who voted "this record", also voted for Chile Peppers, Nine Inch Nails and people go, "AHAH! That’s me! I like Chile Peppers and I like Nine Inch Nails…blah blah blah. GREAT !" It’s all about: insurance, and risk management and making people feel safe about making a choice. And the reality is, you know if you start... if you fuck around in Los Angeles or Miami in an open topped car as I have done, and you make a wrong turn, you could be in some serious trouble very very quickly. If you make a wrong turn or a wrong choice in a record store you know, what’s going to happen? Is the CD going to explode in your face? So, but, you know, I’ve said for a while there should be two sides, never mind all the sections and subdivisions in a music store… one side of a CD store should be painted "Shit Brown" and have all the crap CDs just stacked up against the wall, written with SHIT written all over them. And the other side that should be heard -- Hey this is some good stuff, just put your hand through the wall randomly and pick one out and go home and be surprised. But that’s not where it’s going, it’s going narrower and narrower and narrower… and I have no idea what to do about that, except to say, "That’s kinda lame." You know, expose yourself to a new experience, whatever… and ah, take a chance.

Last Sigh: That leads me to ask you, in terms of Damage Manual the sound that you produce there with your friends… how would you describe it, for someone who hasn’t heard it and you don’t want to be equated to another band?

Martin: Dangerous and exciting. What I wanted to have happen, was that, to me, to go to the studio with Wobble, Geordie [Walker] and Chris [Connelly] and [to] create something that was lame would be dishonoring the vibes to the bands that we’d all been in. And so, I thought the most important thing I could do, was to try and recreate the spirit of PIL in ’79, Ministry in ’89, Killing Joke in ‘84-85 where it was a bit dangerous and people went "What? "Whooooaaaaa". And Chris Connelly heard the first CD mixes and he said "Christ!" I think that the album was toned down a bit from the EP, which has to do with, you know, I don’t think that Wobble really got where we were going with this. And I kinda thought that was the whole idea…you know, I wanted to not get a few things either that were important to Wobble, but Wobble didn’t get the things that were important to me and I think that began to be a more of the problem. So I brought Laswell in to do six mixes on the album, and ah, but I would have liked to have seen the album be, ‘several clicks’ more abrasive and challenging than the EP, and I think the album is safer than the EP. And that’s something that’s part of being in a band with four other opinionated, smart people I want to work with.

Last Sigh: How come Wobble isn’t here?

Martin: He doesn’t want to be. And I think I just, I said it on the mailer, or the poster or the web site, that we had to choose to being The Damage Manual with Jah Wobble and doing no shows and not doing anything, or moving forwards and seeing where this is going. And I’ve really enjoyed playing for the last few days and I’m excited to see where it goes. So it was kind of a painful thing, especially for me because Wobble was the first person I called [to start the project]. So it kind of pisses me off I’ve seen some stuff on the web: "Ooooooh Wobble’s NOT going to be there, Oooooh … IT’S Oooover!" It’s not over, the songs are great…. And who has a right to be more pissed off and frustrated than ME? You know, it’s like it was over 20 years ago, this is kinda of a, it’s karmic. Here we are the circle is complete twenty years later, except the ending of this circle is the beginning of another circle, if is it isn’t karmic, whatever the fuck, I don’t know what is. So yeah, I sent a few emails to people saying…

Last Sigh: ...it’s not over ‘till it’s over...

Martin nods...

Last Sigh: I wanted to say to you too, last year sometime I saw a video on TV... and it had you in a band, drumming, way long ago, I want to say it was Ed Sullivan or something...but I don't think it was...

Martin: Was it American Bandstand?

Last Sigh: YEAH!  Maybe it was American Bandstand and old... Yeah, that was it, what was the band name?

Martin: PIL.

Last Sigh: Yeah, and what year, do you remember what decade that was?

Martin: 81', 80-81'.

Last Sigh: Ohhh ok... on American Bandstand. Was that shot here or over there?

Martin: LA. We had no idea who Dick Clark was! We thought it was a cable TV show. We had no idea. I know now, like, Oh MY GOD!

Last Sigh: That's still being played on TV here. It's crazy...

Martin: Oh I know! They play it over in England as well. I mean, we went on there and Dick CLark came in the dressing room and we were like: "Who the FUCK are you?" And he was just, he looked like he got punched in the face! It's definitely a funny moment. We were miming. We were miming. And halfway through the second song I started playing bass, [the bass player] played drums, and Keith the guitarist just gave his guitar to a member of the audience. Dick Clark was furious!

Last Sigh: Well I just wanted to mention that, it was pretty funny. That was two decades ago... That was when you moved over here?

Martin: Just before.

Last Sigh: I asked Lee if he'd ever get back with Sheep on Drugs to play a gig or two over there again...I read on the web somewhere that people over there want to get them to play again... is that a possiblity do you think? Are they completely gone or?

Martin: I don't know if they'd want to... that was five years ago. I'd be happy as the owner of the label to see it [happen]. Woowoo! If they were having fun doing it sure...

Last Sigh: Ok, and is Test Dept finished in terms of being a band and playing again or any CDs?

Martin: I think it is yeah.. but I don't know I might be completely wrong. But a new double album coming out tomorrow. I don't know I'm not in touch with them anymore ... I'm in touch with Martin King b'cuz of his relationship with Pigface and our relationship with him as Subgenious, but yeah I don't know.

Last Sigh: Up in the air... I just wanted to know because I think Test Dept is an incredibly good band...

Martin: Oh that tour was excellent!
[1996 Sheep On Drugs with Test Dept]

Last Sigh: Yeah, it was actually.

End of Transmission.

To see photos from this show go HERE     To visit Invisible Records,
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